Living Room Session. Women in Mining: Gender, Climate, & Experimental Work on the Horizon

During our July Living Room session we delved into the critical role women play in the mining industry, particularly in the realm of colored gemstones. Together with our guests, Cristina Villegas of Pact and Hannah Wang’ombe of AWEIK, we explored the challenges faced by women in this sector and the potential for a more sustainable and equitable approach. These are key takeaways from the session:

• Women's Pivotal Role: Women constitute a significant portion of the mining workforce – about one-third of all miners worldwide are women. They work primarily in artisanal and small-scale mining (ASM) and contribute across various stages, from extraction to trade. 
• Environmental Impact: The session challenged the common misconception of ASM as a major contributor to carbon emissions. More accurate, reliable, and verifiable GHG emissions data is needed when it comes to varied colored gemstone ASM site production practices. Claims that lab grown gemstones have a lesser environmental impact than mined gemstones incorrectly overstate the environmental footprint of some artisanal mining sites that use basic tools and equipment. 
• The Moyo Gems Supply Chain Greening Project: Our guests introduced their experimental program which aims to measure the carbon footprint of ASM and focus on carbon insetting (the process of reducing overall emissions and carbon footprint within a particular supply chain or industry through the implementation of nature-based solutions such as reforestation, agroforestry, renewable energy and regenerative agriculture) to inform more sustainable practices. A unique co-creation approach that fosters local ownership will be used in this work, so a key focus is collaborating with local communities, especially women, in decision-making. As a result, rural women’s priorities will be reflected from the outset.
• Pathways to Progress: Women are most vulnerable when it comes to the impact of climate change and face many hurdles including limited resources and gender-based violence. We explored the potential for industry, government, and community collaboration to address these challenges and create a more just and sustainable future together.

Here at CMC, we believe that understanding the role of women in mining, empowering local communities at the source of jewelry materials, and measuring environmental impacts are essential steps towards driving positive change and creating a more sustainable future for the jewelry industry. 

To learn more about or contribute to the Moyo Gems Project, please, visit their website. 

To check out the full conversation, we encourage you to watch the recording of the session or read the transcript below.

0:00:03.2 Cecilia Echeverri: So welcome everybody. This is the Living Room, bi-monthly session for conversation and information sharing on topics related to sustainable jewelry practices. We cover a variety of topics from practical tools that can be implemented in your jewelry practice to in-depth learning about artisanal mining for example. Today we're going to be discussing the role of women in mining and colored gemstone mining in particular, including the challenges women face in this sector and the work being done to address these challenges. And as always, later on, we'll have a blog post summary and a recording on our website for you guys to reference. I'm Cecilia Echeverri, Operations Director at Cristina T. Miller Sustainable Jewelry Consulting and I'm super happy to be here with you all along with Christina Miller, our founder and lead consultant. Anna, who is CMC's education director and usually leading the Living Rooms is right now enjoying fun times with family in Lithuania.

0:01:09.3 CE: Through our educational and consulting services, we provide strategy, guidance, and education on responsible sourcing and sustainability for the jewelry industry. You can find out more at christinatmiller.com and you can always reach out to us with questions or suggestions I'll put our link in the chat. We want to say a big thank you to those of you who contribute to making these sessions happen. It's really critical and we value your patronage through the pay what you want, option on our website as well as to everyone here for showing up to this conversation and listening to it down the road in our recording.

0:01:50.9 CE: Just a very quick housekeeping. As usual, this conversation is being recorded and will be in the public realm, so we encourage your participation through the chat and may read some questions or comments out loud. For the best sound quality for the recording, please make sure your microphone is on mute and remember that this is a kind community space, so please be respectful of everyone's privacy and personal space if you're using the chat. Just so you all know, I've put it in your calendars our next Living Room will be September 20th. Please sign up for our newsletter to receive a reminder about that as well as takeaways from the session and all the other fun stuff that we share with our lovely community. Now I'll hand it over to Christina to start this conversation. Thanks.

0:02:46.4 Christina Miller: Thanks so much. This Living Room feels like a bit of a reunion given the folks that are joining this particular session. Thanks everybody for coming. It is a great honor to be able to welcome Hannah Wang'ombe and Cristina Villegas to our session today. Hannah is the Chief Executive Officer at the Association for Women in Energy and Extractives in Kenya, with the acronym AWEIK. And she oversees and helps set the association's strategy and vision and works closely with her board to ensure strategic management of the association. Her research interests in the extractive industry in Kenya are around the issues of artisanal and small scale mining and socioeconomic effects of large scale mining on indigenous communities, as well as investigating the impact of extractive industries on political settlements and conflict. Cristina Villegas, who most of you know or have met at some point or another, is the director of Responsible Sourcing and Minerals at Pact. And we welcome them both today, we're going to open the session with a presentation from Cristina, and then we'll have a conversation with the two of them. So sit back and enjoy.

0:04:15.3 Cristina Villegas: Hello everyone. We're just gonna wait for the presentation to come up on the screen and I'm joining you from Tanzania. I was up in the Moyo market day last week, and then I was spending some time with our partner TAWOMA. We did a retreat with them and there's some big growth happening this year. So, big announcements to come and with the TAWOMA youth in particular. So watch my Instagram. There's some really cool work ahead.

0:04:53.3 CM: Very exciting.

0:04:57.0 CV: So there's a few pictures here. It's a mix of Tanzania and Kenya, and so I will tell you when it's Kenya or when it's Tanzania. Here it is Tanzania and that's Monica Stevenson. So, I'll just give you a little background. We are...

0:05:19.1 CE: Sorry, Cristina. Are you seeing the other slides to your left or just the whole picture?

0:05:23.9 CV: We're doing the, oh, I see the other slides to the left.

0:05:28.8 CE: The whole PowerPoint.

0:05:29.8 CV: So if you go to slideshow on the top and then yeah, so slideshow on the top. Oh, here we go. And then you choose, yeah, from beginning. Yeah.

0:05:38.8 CE: Great. Sorry. Thanks.

0:05:40.7 CV: There you go. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. So we're doing some really interesting work. It began with, I think sometimes if you know me well, you know I get annoyed and then they sense my annoyance, [laughter] and so this project began when I started getting quite alarmed at what I perceive as the weaponization of sustainability. And I see, the term sustainability being weaponized against poor people around the world. And so I've been thinking about how to change that, because it is like kind of a horrific irony, especially when you consider artisanal miners. The what that we work with and at the Moyo program are using shovels and picks and human strength to dig minerals out of the ground. In Kenya, they are doing more mechanization and we will talk about that but, more and more I'm seeing companies choosing lab grown materials, and using environmental grounds to justify that. So that's what inspired this whole project, to green our supply chains and eventually do some mic drops in the jewelry sector. So some early thinking about how to do that. And we're, of course, because I'm a feminist, and of course, why not? We're going to focus in on women at the center of this work. So next slide.

0:07:26.7 CV: So just some terms. You go to the next slide, Ceci. Yeah, perfect. Just some terms to begin. I'll be talking about carbon offsetting and carbon insetting. Carbon offsetting is when a company chooses to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by purchasing credits from others. So carbon reduction projects like carbon credit projects, in a far off place that's not related to the supply chain. So you often think about when you purchase flights, you are purchasing usually a tree planting project in a rain forest environment somewhere. That's an offset. Carbon insetting is when a company or an industry chooses to reduce the overall emissions in their supply chain. So I call offsetting cheating because they're not actually reducing their greenhouse gases. They're actually not doing anything for the environment except supporting a tree planting project in a far off place. Insetting, I think, is more meaningful because you are actually reducing your overall emissions and you're contributing to the environment in your own supply chain.

0:08:46.5 CV: So the second one, carbon insetting, is what we hope to do within the jewelry industry. So we want to work with you through the Moyo footprint, through the power of your purchasing. So when you purchase, you'll actually be contributing to an overall reduction in your own supply chain, just as a normal part of doing business and making the planet a little less warm. And then, of course, artisanal and small-scale mining. You'll hear me say ASM a lot. This is a largely informal sector, which means that people do not have permits to mine typically. And people usually have basic tools to mine the earth from gold to gemstones to cobalt to copper to salt to sand to coal. And if you Google ASM PACT, where I work, that definition comes up, the first one. So next slide.

0:09:56.2 CV: So as I mentioned, my annoyance started this project. And so it's the ability. Sustainability itself, it usually means social sustainability and environmental. But when you say sustainability, people usually think about environmental. And yeah, you're hearing people using "recycled gold" instead of mined gold on "sustainability grounds". People using lab-grown diamonds on "sustainability grounds", ignoring the tremendous energy use. And all those machines it takes to make those diamonds. But we actually don't have the data to making those decisions. Artisanal miners tend not to go to sustainability conferences.

0:10:53.3 CV: They're not in those rooms making those decisions. And they're not even part of those conversations. So we can't actually have data-driven discussions and in my opinion, it's pure marketing and greenwashing. So as companies start to have to report the GHG emissions to the EU and US regulators, we will need real data to use to report this. So that's another reason to start to measure this stuff. So that's what we'll be doing. We'll be measuring it first and then using that data, then meaningfully respond to it. And then having data-driven conversations and doing some really careful measurements so that we can humble ourselves and then measure very accurately. So next slide. So some key facts. This is our woman in Kenya. She's with one of the cooperatives that we work with. And so gemstones are mined primarily by ASM. The highest estimates are about 90% of all gemstones, colored gemstones are mined by ASM. And then the best estimates are around 80%. And the most conservative that I've heard is about 70. But most people kind of land around 80% of all gemstones every year mined by artisanal and small-scale miners. And about a third of those are women.

0:12:35.8 CV: In Kenya, women work all the roles, from lady bosses to diggers to haulers to traders to qualified geologists and blasters and everywhere in between. And a miner is really anyone whose hand touches soil because it's pretty rare for someone to mine alone. And so to work on a mine site, there's various roles. And so I think it's ill-informed just to say, if you're a digger, you're a miner because you need someone to haul it, someone to sort it, someone to find the deposit in the first place. So all those roles are considered miners and that's pretty well established by academics and really everyone.

0:13:30.4 CV: So, that's how we define it as pact. And then the US Geological Survey did a really interesting piece of research a few years ago, and they asked me to peer review it, and they found that where you have women miners, is where you have shallow overburden. And overburden is like the layer of dirt that you have to remove to get to the good stuff, and that makes sense because there's different physical strength differentials between women and men. And so when you have more shallow overburden, usually two meters or less, that's where you find more women miners, but I also pointed out, when I did the peer review, I said, look, yes, of course that's the case, but it's also where women can leave their house.

0:14:24.4 CV: So we have more open societies where women are allowed to work alongside men or allowed to work with other women. That's also where you find them, and so more conservative places, even if you have shallow overburden, you're not gonna find women miners because they're not allowed to leave their house. So that's the cultural environment plus the geological environment, have to go hand in hand. And then in Taita Taveta, it's a said Savannah environment. It's very dry, and there's very little water. And I wanted to credit, I wanted to give a shout out to my colleague Esther here, she's on the chat, she's our woman on the ground in Kenya. And she works with Hannah's team to deliver Moyo. And there's a guy named James Biss in the audience as well. And he's our partner on gem cutting, and that's... Space. It's very, very exciting, so next slide.

0:15:27.0 CV: This is a picture from Tanzania, and this just shows how women mine. Women and men have, again, have different strengths. So, they, women tend to share the load, so they'll often share a saw, and so this is what it really looks like, you'll see that, they're barefoot. This is a truly artisanal environment, this is a non mechanized site. So again, this is how much carbon are they actually emitting here? How many emissions are they actually emitting when there's no water in use? The amount of water they use every day is less than this bottle of water here. They only use this amount of water and it's when they find a potential gem, they put a little bit of water to reveal whether it's a gem or not. And there's no mechanization. So, like I said, it enrages me when people are like, oh, lab grown gems are more sustainable than this. I'm like, really? [laughter] It depends. It really depends.

0:16:35.6 CV: You should really know where your mine's coming from. You know where your miners are because in a rainforest environment, I can see you making that argument, but we're in a dry savanna environment with truly artisanal miners who walk to work. [laughter], We should have a conversation. So next slide, this next slide here is a group of women and men working together. And that's really common, so that's also why we allow men and women to jointly join Moyo. They were working together before we started the program. And so we to keep men out would be unjust, because we need male allies, we love allies. We should keep them as allies. And also it also helps make sure to maintain community harmony and keep women safe. So, there's often a woman down below in that pit, and she'll like rotate out more frequently, again, because of the differences in strengths. So it might be a man down there or it might be a woman, and they'll rotate out more frequently and they'll work shorter hours. So, next slide.

0:18:00.4 CV: And so this is, so the plan for our project, and then you can go to maybe your questions after this, is, we'll be doing a baseline audit basically. And this will be some technical experts, East African technical experts to work with AWEIK and provide and perform what's called a carbon inventory. And that is, we'll be focusing on the energy use, and of the actual mine site itself, how workers get to the site, the actual mine site use, how many missions are actually being emitted at the actual site itself. Biomass above and below ground was actually happening there, and then the transport to the point of export, and then that's where the inventory will stop because then it'll be a comparable journey to wherever it's going to the client with lab grown. So then we'll have data to compare. And what we'll do is take the inventories from non-mechanized, truly artisanal sites to semi mechanized sites, to fully mechanized sites. And that way, if you have truly artisanal miners in your environment, your emission is gonna be itty bitty.

0:19:33.6 CV: If you have fully mechanized sites, you might have to, I've seen some more seeing some more carbon, but it really encourages companies to really get to know your miners and also better extrapolate your footprint when you do those calculations. So it's really gonna be creating some texture and some better data when we kinda start separating those calculations. So instead of just saying ASM is this amount of carbon per day is really starting to get that detail. Because how people get to work, like on the left hand side here matters.

0:20:15.0 CV: If it's a motorbike, if it's a car, how it cross, how it gets to the point of export matters, and I think it's gonna be really exciting research. I think it'll be humbling for me. 'cause I could be wrong. I'm prepared to be wrong, but I think that... I think what's next I think will be truly interesting 'cause then we'll gather folks, sit with Hannah, her team will be the ones facilitating. We'll have a local ecologist come in, and then we'll talk about, okay, what does the data say? What are all the options here to respond to it?

0:20:53.0 CV: But first let's talk about vocabulary. What is climate change? What is an emission? What is carbon? Let's actually just talk about this first. And, get on the same page. And then talk about, okay, why are we talking about this? Why is it important? And then. What does the data say? And, what are all the ways to respond to this? Is it rooftop solar, as a way to avoid, emissions? So instead of heat... Instead of using a generator to heat your house in the footprint in the Moyo community, can we put a rooftop solar to avoid that emission?

0:21:35.3 CV: Could we start, doing some decarbonization work on the actual mine itself? We do start doing strategic rehabilitation work and 'cause like, the question is, who decides these things? Is it Cristina who sits at her desk in DC? Who decides these things? Or is it women in the village who decide these things? And that's the, actually the key part of this whole thing 'cause we'll be using a co-creation approach that fosters local ownership from the very beginning.

0:22:08.5 CV: And that's gonna be the critical part 'cause, usually it's... You do a baseline and then you might co-create, but it's a bunch of leaders, which are usually a bunch of dudes sitting around a table. And the ladies are kind of an afterthought, but this is the Moyo project we care about women's decisions. What we found in this lab work is that men, we love men, we love allies, but they tend to talk loudly and they tend to prioritize, buildings and physical infrastructure.

0:22:46.4 CV: Whereas women tend to prioritize services, and like schools and healthcare, and so we wanna make sure that they're part of the conversation, that they get jobs to, and, that they either, benefit from these investments or are directly managing them, so this is gonna be really interesting.

0:23:11.6 CV: It's experimental. We don't have all the answers. It won't just be miners part of these conversations. It'll be all village women in these communities, and we'll have to do some scientific monitoring verification to make sure that things are being done properly and, things are getting done. But, that's the direction we're going in and it's really exciting, so we wanted to share, about this work about... 'cause we need to react to a changing environment, expectations, but we also need to make sure that, these communities, are deciding what happens to their futures, and that they're in charge. Not Cristina's just sitting at her desk in DC and not somewhat sustainability officer deciding something.

0:24:11.0 CV: So, that's why we're keeping up with AWEIK, 'cause they have this amazing convening power and, they're our advisors, and this is trend that we're responding to. And I think at the end, if we can show what's possible when engaged local communities on these big challenges instead of disengaging, I declare my victory on that.

0:24:45.2 CM: Thanks so much, Cristina. What a treat to be able to be introduced to a project at its very beginning. I feel really honored that you're sharing it with us, like at this moment in time as the research model is developed, as the activities are rolled out. And so before we go to Hannah, to unpack a little bit about how AWEIK is participating in this and to share a little more about the organization, what are you hoping right now that folks on the call listen for in terms of listening for ways that an understanding of climate change and carbon accounting, so to speak, happens in these artisanal, and small scale mining environments? I think that's our challenge today is just to listen and learn about what that is really all about in such a unique environment. So the question is, what am I hoping to have people listen for?

0:26:00.3 CV: Listen for? Yeah. I would advise... What I would invite their input, so if they have ideas on how to make this more rigorous, or have resources that, or case studies that they know of, that would be awesome 'cause, this is all new territory and we need allies. And so I guess. I'm still in a humble mode, and this is also a new territory for me. Luckily pact is like a wealth of resources. And my environmental colleagues were like, wait, what? Our mining people actually like wanna start doing work on the environment? Hallelujah. Amen.

[laughter]

0:27:02.9 CV: So they're like running to us like saying, yes, yes, please. Let's team up. So, we actually have this, like these huge projects in Asia, and so our colleagues there are like, let's do an energy audit, like find out where the energy sources are.

[laughter]

0:27:27.4 CV: And we realized we know about same like people from GIA. That was funny.

[laughter]

0:27:34.9 CM: Yes.

0:27:39.6 CV: So that we have all these internal resources, and that was amazing. That's like... It's awesome, so all this has to say is that we have these internal resources that pact, but I'm also deeply... I'm deeply like humble mode, and I welcome your inputs.

0:28:04.9 CM: Great. Well, I would love to, turn to Hannah and then we will have sort of engage in conversation, from Cristina, from the images you showed of the artisanal mining activity and the conclusions you're drawing about the carbon footprint of the mining activity. I mean, at first glance, I would absolutely totally agree that that's really like low impact, if not, if not positive.

[laughter]

0:28:39.9 CM: Carbon neutral at an extreme in a way. And so turning to Hannah, it would be wonderful to hear both some background about AWEIK, but then with this, given that your organization includes women in mining, also in energy products like energy minerals, all the way to color gemstones, how is getting involved in this project, influencing maybe considerations and learnings in other areas, that you're working on? So tell us a little bit more about AWEIK and then we can get into the meet. We have to unmute you or go ahead. Oh, we have to unmute. There we go.

0:29:36.5 Hannah: My apologies. And I'm saying good morning to those calling from that part of the world and good evening to my part of the world. And it's good to see friends that I know, Esther and James. It's good to see people that I've followed online, that I think are so amazing, Cristina Miller being one of them, and Stewart Pool I don't think I've shared a space with them. So, I really thank you for the invitation, Cristina. And, very quickly getting into it, as you have heard we are the association of women in energy and extractives in Kenya and at this point I want to say a big thank you to Cristina Villegas 'cause she approached us two years ago. We didn't not know what she was talking about, Moyo Gems. And it's been such a great journey, we had always wanted for the women to interact with the market. And so out of this, we... Was born a mind to market program for AWEIK. And when you meet Cristina, she's very big on evidence. She made us do a rapid assessment and we've tracked, we have research, tracking, what a gemstone, a satellite would travel from, to the main market.

0:31:07.8 Hannah: And so thank you Cristina and your team Esther for the support over other years, we've learned a great deal and I'm very excited about what this project, holds for us as a team, pact and AWEIK. And so very quickly, AWEIK is a membership, organization. We, work across Kenya. For those that don't know, we are divided into 47 counties, what us would call subnational governments, and out of those 47, 31 are mining counties and we work in nine of those, and basically, working with women across the oil, gas, mining, and energy value chains.

0:31:58.4 Hannah: Our women we say are not homogeneous. Our women are first there's professional women that work in mining as marketers, as HR. Then we have women that, work in SME or small and medium, enterprises that are business women. And of course now what, Cristina was referring to as artisanal and small scale miners, or what we call grassroots women. And why, this is important for us and why we even wanted to get into Moyo gems is 'cause when we talk about gemstone mining and jewelry as value chains, these are the women that mine, or men and women that mine most of the gemstones.

0:32:47.8 Hannah: And Cristina, you're right, it's 80% of gemstones are mined by the artisanal and small scale miners. But, again, to say that, they remain informal, they remain not very well organized. And that is why AWEIK is here. 'cause right now we've been, part of initiative by government to register them into cooperatives. We now have 29, what we call artisanal and mining cooperatives across the country. So it's easier to work with them, when they're in groups.

0:33:28.4 Hannah: I want to say that Moyo Gems as a program has changed the way we do business as AWEIK in this sense, that our miners are understanding what the end consumer wants, and this has been through a lot of training, how to package your stones for the market day, and just understanding that the issue of responsible mining is so important to the end consumer. How are you conducting yourself? How are you conducting as a woman in a mine? Are you... What are your labor practices in the mining sector? But I think the conversation now is becoming more pertinent, is even as you mine, are you taking care of your environment? And we've had an occupational health and safety training over the years, and this has come out as that we are not touching on issues, environment, issues, climate change, and how these impacts on women. And I wanna give you a bit of statistics around this.

0:34:45.6 Hannah: Kenya is one of the most progressive countries to put together a Climate Change Act in 2016, and that's been revised last year. It's been amended 'cause of new things happening. We put together the Africa Climate Summit, championed by our president. And by the way, sorry, I digress. The protests you see hasn't stopped business going on. So business continues. We had market day during the protests two weeks ago. And so it's to allay the fears that, oh, Kenya is... But it is timely that we are seeing our young people being very participatory in the democracy and governance of our country. So back to where we are at. So Paris Agreement, here we are. Kenya is a signatory. And we have big companies making commitments to be zero emitters by 2050.

0:35:54.2 Hannah: Oh, net zero, not zero, net zero. And you sit back and wonder, as a continent, 'cause that's what we're talking contextually, we only emit 4% as Africa, the least globally. But when you come to the ground, we bear the brunt as a continent of climate change. In fact, as Kenya, we only emit 0.16%. And four key sectors are biggest emitters. And you'll see why I'm telling you that. Agriculture at 40%, 'cause of livestock, and forestry and changing land use, then followed by transport, 'cause of diesel, and what is used as emissions and fossil fuels. Industrial processing follows closely. Then you have waste management and electricity generation. Mining doesn't even fall anywhere on that category as an emitter at the top of the chain.

0:37:12.9 Hannah: But when you look at where women work most is in agriculture, 80% of smallholder farmers are women. So are we saying that women are emitters? Largely, 'cause of how they are working the ground. The jury is still out there and there's no evidence. But agriculture remains the biggest emitter. And so when you look at all our action plans, so we have a national climate change action plan, 2023. We have initiatives around the Kenya County Climate Change Fund, financially locally led climate actions for counties.

0:38:00.9 Hannah: And when you sit back and ask yourself, how are women affected by climate change? Folks, they're the most vulnerable in terms of climate change impact. And I'll tell you why. First of all, 'cause as Africans, the society and the roles women play means that they're the caregivers. They're the ones cooking, they're the ones fetching water, they're the ones doing domestic chores. And so when there is extreme climate change, like drought or floods, it means women have to either walk further distances to fetch water. It means the water they're using is not clean 'cause they can't access clean water.

0:38:52.0 Hannah: It's hygiene to their children. If they cannot produce food, you find there's always an increase in their children with malnutrition. And the list is long. And when you see the nexus around climate change and gender and where these things overlap is the issues that gender inequality is exhibited as a result. The World Economic Forum is telling us it's going to take 130 years for us to meet the gender gap and the gender inequality. So what are we saying when we don't address issues of climate change? Secondly, and this we've seen first hand.

0:39:34.0 Hannah: Kenya in last year experienced the worst drought in the last 40 years. And what this meant, especially for women in rural communities where our women miners are found, the vulnerabilities and especially to gender and sexual based violence is one of the very, very top issues I say, came up because women are not only vulnerable in the effects of climate change, but you find that there is abuse around it. They're staying more at home. They cannot fend for themselves, so the economics around it, becomes a challenge, for them to fend for their families. And so you find that these are just some of the crosscutting issues, that we are addressing. And so why are we interested in this project that Cristina, that blew my mind off? First of all, I've never heard the word insetting, and I'm like, "Okay, Cristina, we learn every day." We've always had of offsetting, greenwashing and, everything negative that comes with it.

0:41:00.4 Hannah: So I'm saying, "Okay, Cristina, enlighten me." And we're saying we are living in mining communities that have an opportunity to make a difference. And how can they do this? We work in communities where when you go and Cristina has been to some of the mines, you find there are no trees in sight, absolutely nothing. They removed the ground, she was talking about the overburden and they've removed it. The top soil is totally, destroyed. Nothing can grow there. And, then you see that they're working in most remote places, water scarce, and I can see a very good question from James Bas. And of course, the what, one thing that in Taita Taveta that we've experienced is the increase in human wildlife conflict. We are in the Tsavo. And so what has happened is that, when there's drought, the elephants will come to the campsites where women are working to look for food and water.

0:42:10.6 Hannah: Actually I have a pile on my desk of women that have lost property, have lost workers, people's lives to elephants having, but there is no redress mechanism. We have tried to speak to the Kenya Wildlife Service, they will not meet us at the table. So what I'm saying guys, is that this is pertinent, a pertinent conversation for us to have. And if we can find nature-based solutions, I think the women will be very happy. And I know Cristina, you keep saying that this will be more than women, but I think women will champion this better than anybody. But the benefits to the community will be long lasting, will be much more felt and benefit, men, women, children, and everybody in those communities. And so what I want to conclude by saying I hope Christina, I haven't taken too much of your time, is that climate change issues are not gender neutral.

0:43:25.7 Hannah: And that, they affect gender differently. Women are more susceptible to them. And if we can sit down and say, the, "What can we do together?" First is raising awareness about it and raising awareness about it along the value chain, of, from mine to your jeweler. Can our jewelers tell a story about where the stories are mined, a better story. A story that's not hopeless, a story that. I like Cristina's use of words of weaponizing sustainability. Can we tell a real story, that it is sustainable business, that there's things being done about it, on the ground. And, yeah. So I'm happy to take questions, and yeah, have a conversation around it. If I missed anything, Christina, please let me know.

0:44:32.6 CE: Hannah, super interesting. Thank you so much, lots to learn from all the people on the ground. And, just a small note from me regarding the, being hopeful. I think we can make a very small parallel as to what's happening in this country, we are moved more for, hope than for fear. So I think we're living it right now. I think Brandy was asking something that I was also, interested in. Brandy, let me know if I read your question correctly. Hannah, we talk a lot about them. What do they say about us?

0:45:14.7 CV: What do, consumers say about... Ask about?

0:45:25.6 CE: What do the miners say about us? What does the upstream say about downstream?

0:45:29.7 Brandy: Why are they being held responsible for this? Or why are they even being asked? That kind of thing is where I'm leading.

0:45:37.0 CV: Yeah. Well, we haven't had the conversation yet, and it might come up, but I think, we're only asking because, we'll have something, we'll have an incentive. We'll have, like, we'll have money to bring them. Be, so, we can't tell them to do something without having, money to, perhaps for them to do it basically, because these are, these are people with lots to do and, they can't be forced to do anything, of course 'cause they're free agents, free people. So for folks that do anything, they need to be paid to do it. So I think that's, I think it's an opportunity. I think that, I think that's, I think that's how, how I would present it as an opportunity, this is the reason. It's our, you see these changes and, this is the reason why this is here, and this benefits the community in this way. But Hannah, I'm sure you have a more eloquent response. It's like, I started, I started my day at six o'clock 'cause I know, we had a six hour drive back. So I had good internet for this conversation. So you're starting to see my tiredness from the day, so I'm sure, I'm sure Hannah had a much more eloquent response to that one.

0:47:04.2 Hannah: Brandy. It's a, wow, it's a good question. And I think, and I give credit to Moyo for this. First of all, we've made our miners understand gemstones are not consumed locally in Kenya. And I think that's hitting home, and we are consistently having a conversation around what does your consumer want to see? You are in business, mining is a business. And that's why we are saying to our women, that's why you come to the market and negotiate. So one thing they've understood is that you versus them is that you're paying a better price than local dealers are doing. Number two, that you're interested in them doing mining responsibly. That is one thing that's very important. Now, I'll give you a, small story, I don't know if you have seen that the recent watch by Ronaldo is full of Tsavorite, just Google it.

0:48:28.8 Hannah: And, one of the reasons the Tsavorite, which is found where Moyo Gems is working in Taita Taveta is, has been made what is called a strategic mineral in Kenya. And so what that means for us is that the government will be, looking to brand Tsavorite as a Kenyan stone. So there's a bit of interest around it. So when the miners saw the price of Ronaldo's watch and what they get for their price on the ground, and I said, but you see there is value addition to this stone and what JumpFund is doing in helping with lapidary and cutting, we'll go a long way to do that. So Brandy, what I, what my short answer to your question is, I think now we are not doing them versus us and vice versa. It is how do we make this work?

0:49:42.7 Hannah: And we're seeing a change, and I can solely attribute it to Moyo Gems for having, we have now 400, 500 miners on the program, and I'm not ashamed to ask, Cristina has taught me this to unashamably ask for money. So if anyone of you wants to continue supporting Moyo Gems, it's the, it's the best thing that ever happened to the women in mining. And remember, it's not only Taita Taveta that has gemstones, we have sapphires coming from Garbatula in Isiolo, we have Kitui, and many other places. So yeah. Brandy, I hope you're answered.

0:50:29.3 CM: I'd like to tie a few of these themes together, that I've been hearing and then move on to another question that was submitted in the chat. And, it had to do with sort of one of the lead-ins of Cristina's around, the way sustainability programs. And I'm not sure that it's the sustainability programs, honestly, as much as compliance or this desire to meet standards, tick the box and provide a level of confidence for investors and for purchasers that this company has it together, they can meet all the marks on responsible practices. And then as a result, mining companies that are larger tend to be more successful at being able to complete the paperwork, maybe not necessarily delivering on carbon reducing activities, but they can, they can fill out the paperwork and deliver on the expectations of the purchaser in a way that allows the purchaser to pass down that confidence to their investors and their purchasers.

0:51:40.9 CM: So I think in a way, this is where this leads into and what was just said is that, Hannah, you're saying we don't have to look at this as necessarily to your question, Brandy, like a burden on the communities to start gathering carbon data on their environments, but rather see it as an opportunity to, they'll get access to the information that purchasers are looking for. It overall is encouraging responsible mining practices, which Hannah is saying that's actually an appreciated value of this. What that this purchasing community brings to the miners. It's saying, "We're not here to exploit. We are here to pay a fair price. And we're also concerned about your ability, or the resources you have to care for the environment in the process."

0:52:42.3 CM: And so this is this moment now we've arrived where this leveling of the playing field in a way where the engagement on actually measuring, learning, understanding is going to enable communities with decision-making power around, are we going to build a school or are we going to plant 1000 trees? What's right for the savannah? What's right for our people? What's right for our practices? And so for me, I'm seeing it as this, it's a shift away from ticking the box on the piece of paper and giving a signal that this is a good company to work with rather, we've arrived at this moment of partnership that is really beautiful. And Maggie in the chat asked specifically, "Are there actions industry can take to support the cost burden of this process to capture GHG data at an ASM level?" And her question is one that, many of us are asking that are trying to support artisanal and small-scale mining. So maybe first from AWEIKs perspective for Hannah because you're working with so many different women in mining, they have many opinions about this. And then Cristina you know the project in detail.

0:54:12.3 Hannah: Yeah. So for me, top of mind, and I think we discussed this at length with a team, is we have to come from a point of evidence. There is no data. And if industry wants to support, it would be towards doing rigor research, rigor assessment, rigor scoping. And it doesn't come cheap. And you see, we want to bring on board various expertise. It's just not a researcher coming to tick a box, a sociologist. Why are people thinking about the environment the way they do? How are they interacting with it? Even someone to project what it means that inserting future numbers, doing a form of economic analysis on it. But also, how industry can support this is to say that, can we move away because a big word in mining right now is ESG. It's not a tick box exercise.

0:55:32.9 Hannah: There is lives that are really impacted by some of those activities. And Christina, you're talking about compliance. Yeah, let's comply tick box. We have beautiful sustainability reports. Our shareholders are happy. And our shares are increasing. Yeah. And then what? So Awake cares about really, I'm seeing Bob Goodman. Thank you that you purchased those gems from Moyo. It goes a long way. It's just that I can't tell all the stories here. And for everybody here who has purchased from Moyo, the impact is real. And we're asking, can we do a little more for those communities, looking at the solutions? And I can tell you guys, women will take a lead on this, Christina. Yeah, so that's for sure. I know, Cristina because she's conceptualized this better on the project. She has a little more to add on it. Thank you.

0:56:41.7 CV: Yeah, on the compliance side, what I've observed is an explosion of reporting. And so the reporting is huge, and huge, and huge, and huge, and huge, and huge, and huge. And the action is fitting. And it's really, it really should be the opposite. Or at least some balance. And it's like shocking to me because if it's balanced, we can actually get something done. So that's something that bothers me. And it's something that's probably not gonna end anytime soon. Something that also I think a lot about is the possibilities, like when you actually, when we actually start figuring out your supply chain, which this industry must start doing because of laws, not just guidance, but laws now. Starting with the EU, and now, eventually, the US will hopefully start catching up. But, due diligence laws and human rights laws out of Europe will start, cascading down.

0:58:06.4 CV: So when the gemstone supply chain, when supply industries starts catching up, well, you'll, we'll start understanding a little bit about more about our supply chains. And wouldn't it be interesting if we started leaning into these local communities on a variety of issues? Again, instead of disengaging, we're actually engaging. Instead of being fearful, you actually work with people. And that's choosing the right local partners to help translate things. And that's where it's choosing people who actually, talk to miners. And that's choosing people like Hannah's, Hannah and her team, who are amazing. And, groups like PACT, who can find people like Hannah and her team, to work with. I also think a lot about like, you should invest in existing projects because these things actually take a lot of time and investment to start up. And it's actually much more effective if you actually engage with people who are already doing it.

0:59:20.7 CV: And, there's no surprise where gemstone community, where gems are found. There's lots of research we know about the, where the gem belts are found. East Africa. There's, something called the Mozambique Belt. Let me know. I can tell you about all the top 20 gemstone countries, it's not a secret. Start there and then there's place. But wouldn't it be interesting if we all started kind of coalescing around the same areas and one group covers something, another group covers something, the group covers something and things are kind of complimentary instead of just kind of hodgepodge, kind of scattershot approach. That's what I think all about so yeah, so in terms of impact, and how can we all do more? I say engage. I say, find allies. I say, find people who are already doing it, and find the right partners and stop reporting on the thing and actually do something.

1:00:32.3 CE: Cristina, I'm one of the fans of engaging with local communities. That's my passion. That's what we should all do. But at the back of my mind, I've got this nagging thing of how can we scale this?

1:00:49.1 CV: Yeah. Well, this particular project the carbon project we're in learning mode. So it's gonna be like two or three villages. And that's, it's gonna be tiny because we need to keep it small, do like fast learning, and then we will grow if, and, that's why we chose Hannah's team because we need somebody who will be successful and Kenya has a really good carbon credit legal environment. So if carbon credits are a viable thing, which we don't know yet about scale, and that's a whole different ballgame. But anyways, so we wanna learn quickly, then we can scale.

1:01:40.9 CV: For Moyo. I can tell you that lots of things are happening next year. But I can't say anything but watch his face. It's big. So anyways, watch his face.

1:01:57.3 CM: That's a great note to end on, to cheer you on. People are clapping and using the little icons, to toot horns and say hi. I wanna thank, Hannah and Cristina very much for joining us today. This was a very fresh conversation in, thinking about all of this. And who knew that elephants, seeking out water in times of drought would be one of the, impacts women are facing as a result of climate change. So I want to thank you all for sharing today and, we look forward to seeing you on September 20th for our next living room session and to keeping in touch. Thank you everyone for joining today.

1:02:47.5 CE: Take care everyone. Thank you.

1:02:49.3 CV: Thank you.
1:02:49.9 CE: Bye-Bye.