Living Room Session: How to Talk about Sustainability with Customers - the Retail Jeweler Experience

The November Living Room session highlighted the importance of creating safe and inclusive spaces for customers to learn about ethical and sustainable jewelry. Our guests, Emily Phillippy of Emily Chelsea Jewelry, Melissa Dusenberry of All the Brilliants, and Robert Goodman of Robert Goodman Jewelers discussed the challenges and rewards of being transparent about sourcing practices and educating consumers.

Key Takeaways:

• The Evolving Consumer: Consumers are increasingly aware of ethical and sustainable issues, and they are seeking out brands that align with their values. This shift in consumer behavior has led to a growing demand for transparent and responsible jewelry.
• The Power of Honesty and Transparency: By being honest and transparent about sourcing practices, retailers can build trust with their customers. For instance, sharing information about the origin of gemstones, the ethical sourcing of metals, and the working conditions of artisans can foster a deeper connection with customers.
• The Importance of Community: Building strong relationships with suppliers and other industry professionals is essential for fostering a more sustainable and ethical jewelry industry. Collaboration with like-minded individuals can help retailers share knowledge, resources, and best practices.
• The Role of Education: Educating consumers about the complexities of the jewelry supply chain is crucial for driving positive change. By explaining the challenges and opportunities within the industry, retailers can empower consumers to make informed choices.

This was one of our final Living Rooms which concluded with a heartfelt farewell and a reflection on a better future for the industry. We hope that our sessions have inspired you to continue advocating for ethical and sustainable jewelry practices and thank you for being a part of this community!

To delve deeper into the conversation, please watch the recording or read the transcript below.

0:00:02.2 Ana Brazaityte: Welcome, everybody. This is The Living Room. It is a space for conversation and information sharing on topics related to sustainable jewelry practices. As most of you will have already heard, today is actually our last Living Room session. This has been a really amazing community building and information sharing environment over the past five years. And it really is bittersweet to see it come to a close. But we really appreciate all of you being here and all of The Living Room content that we've created over the past five years will continue to be available online.

0:00:47.0 AB: And while we are taking this time to refocus on more direct work with our clients, we wanna make sure that you know that we're still here for all of you. So please, please, please stay in touch through social media, join our newsletter and send us your thoughts in reply. We really do love hearing from you. And I'm sure that we'll have other opportunities down the road to meet in a way similar to these living room sessions. But in the meantime, we're sending you a big, heartfelt thank you to all of you who have made this community so special. Oh, I can't be the first one to cry in this one. That's Christina's job, usually.

0:01:34.2 AB: No, we really do appreciate you all and all the time that we've had together. So I'm Ana Brazaityte at Christina T. Miller Sustainable Jewelry Consulting. I've been the education director here, helping put together these sessions with my teammates, Cecilia Echeverri and our founder, Christina Miller. And through our educational and consulting services, we continue to provide strategy, guidance and education on responsible sourcing and sustainability for the jewelry industry. And you can always learn more about our services at ChristinaTMiller.com, which will drop in the chat and you can find in the caption below, if you're watching later.

0:02:20.1 AB: And again, a big thank you to those of you who've been able to contribute to making these sessions happen. And as well as everybody showing up for this conversation or listening to it down the road. So last bit of housekeeping, this conversation is being recorded and it will be in the public realm. We encourage your participation through the chat and we may read some questions out loud. And for the best sound quality for the recording, please make sure that your microphone is on mute. Remember, this is a kind community space, so please be respectful of everyone's privacy and personal space if you are using the chat. So at this time, we're also gonna do a quick survey about a special kind of closeout session on December 6th. We're gonna drop the link in the chat.

0:03:10.2 AB: You know, we're just kind of thinking to not have this end so abruptly, just if anyone wants to come hang out. So let us know by filling out the survey. Sign up for our newsletter as always. And now I'll hand it over to Christina to start today's conversation.

0:03:29.8 Christina Miller: Thanks so much, Ana. Thanks, everyone, for joining today. I am gonna jump right into introducing our guests. And noting the fact that we are centering this last session that we're doing at the very end of the jewelry supply chain, which is the retail environment, whether that be brick-and-mortar store, e-commerce, or special curation and events. We're bringing you Emily Phillippy, Melissa Dusenberry, and Robert Goodman, all who have retail environments that are unique from one another, but what holds them in common is a very strong commitment to ethics, to responsible sourcing, and creating safe spaces. So Emily Phillippy is the owner and founder of Emily Chelsea Jewelry.

0:04:29.8 CM: She received her Bachelor of Fine Arts in Jewelry and Metalsmithing, CAD-CAM, from the Tyler School of Art, and is a certified graduate gemologist through GIA. Melissa Dusenberry is the founder and creative director of All the Brilliants, ANTS. She curates discerning jewelry thoughtfully designed by women and aligns with clients' values. And All the Brilliants is a proud member of the United Nations Fashion and Lifestyle Network. And Robert Goodman, Bob and his wife, Rose-Marie, opened Robert Goodman Jewelers in 2000 to foster an inviting environment and establish a place to share creative original jewelry collections.

0:05:16.9 CM: Robert Goodman Jewelers strives to source from honorable and proactive jewelry designers and suppliers... Excuse me. Whose character aligns with the ethics and values of their human model. So I do wanna say that, you know, while I know there's strong alignment with these retailers, the views of each individual guest speaker are their own and should not be taken as the views of Christina T. Miller Consulting, even though I'm sure there's a lot to rely on.

0:05:57.0 CM: So I'd like to preface this to get us going, that creating safe spaces where people can be comfortable learning about and purchasing jewelry, whether in person or online, seems to be this theme connecting all three of you. And those safe spaces are especially important following Tuesday's events in America. And so we wanna open the floor of conversation with the three of you, knowing that that's one of the primary ways to draw people into your stores and your environment, is a clear, safe environment with which to communicate and learn and purchase jewelry.

0:06:55.5 CM: Please share questions as you have them in the chat. This is gonna be very much a panel discussion, less about getting content in within half an hour and then having talking afterwards. This is meant to be a conversation throughout the event. And while we have questions prepared, of course, if there's something that comes up for you, we'll do our best to fold it into the conversation. So one of our first approaches is, you know, this challenge of do you think being public about your responsible sourcing efforts has attracted customers to your business? And how do you measure this? Like, how do you know whether or not your public efforts have done this?

0:07:47.3 CM: And I'd like to start with Bob, because if you even go to the social media of Robert Goodman Jewelers, you'll see images of how public their belief systems are made. It's undeniable when you go past their retail space. So how has that served you as a pathway to then get to some of our concerns about responsible sourcing and sustainability? How do you know it's working, or not?

0:08:23.8 Robert Goodman: I don't know if it's working. I don't know if that part of it is simply working. What we do know is that it's an element in the whole. It's part of the whole. Right? So if you're gonna be open and you're gonna be unabashedly liberal about in terms of yourselves and your business, responsibly sourcing is logically part of it. If it's not part of it, then there's a certain amount of hypocrisy involved. So what we do know is that the position that we take publicly has affected our business. We have people that come in and say that they're coming to our stores because they support us. We ask if they've never been in before, why they're here. And they're saying almost 100% of them say it's alignment. So our sourcing protocol is intrinsically part of that, I guess.

0:09:46.4 CM: Yeah. So it's a little different with Emily. And you wouldn't know necessarily if you walk by your store, which I had the good fortune of visiting in Philadelphia. So how do people, first tell us how people learn about your position? And then have you been able to gauge if it's working?

0:10:15.8 Emily Phillippy: Yeah. So we have been, we've always been very vocal online and on social media about being inclusive and being outspoken about LGBTQ+ rights, as well as our sourcing practices. That's always stayed at the root of who we are and the root of our message. And it's almost to a fault, the degree that we talk about it. And so it says sometimes you do have to gauge how interested someone actually is. Similar to Bob, almost 100% of people, well, it used to be almost 100% of people that walked in, they came because they heard about our practices, either being inclusive and being very vocal about our inclusivity or our sourcing practices.

0:11:06.9 EP: So it's always been hard to be like, how much do your customers care? It's like, well, it seems like almost all of them do, because that's all we hear about. Sometimes people come in and they just seem to wanna check a box. They wanna know that, you know, they're shopping at a place that is doing the ethical things, like doing the things they read about. And, you know, we can sense when that's the client that's in and maybe we're not gonna talk in detail. And then sometimes we get people who can actually, like on the other end of the spectrum, really talk details and will ask very interesting questions, questions I'd love to get to answer. And that, for me, is kind of how I know that we've reached the audience I'm aiming for, is when we have someone here who's gonna ask me really hard questions and can keep up with the conversation. So we're always gauging like how far we can take this conversation with people. But when people come in and can talk more about it, that's a good indication for me.

0:12:06.6 EP: We also have over 260 five-star reviews on Google, and almost all of them have mentioned our sourcing practices or our values in one way or another. Some even mentioned some of the education they've received while they're here, which I'm always very proud of.

0:12:26.2 CM: That's great. And the role of reviews in helping to communicate your position out into the world. So I'm gonna turn to you, Melissa, and pose the same question. But for the audience, I wanna preface two different sales scenarios that you recently were part of. One, you were part of the marketplace that was part of the UN Climate Week. You can give us a little bit more detail about the specifics of that venue. So you don't have a store, but you put yourself in environments where you think you're gonna find the clientele that you're looking for.

0:13:03.7 CM: And then you also just did that Chocolate and Gems event. So kind of tell us a little bit how your public presence is trying to, however you wanna frame it, attracting people to your business, and what are you learning?

0:13:25.9 Melissa Dusenberry: Yeah, well, it's very interesting, because I think the others have a brick and mortar shop, and I have an e-commerce shop. And so, you know, certainly as an advocate and educator of responsible sourcing, SEO is important to me. And so when you think about, okay, when I'm gonna try to go for this keyword, consumers don't know what responsible sourcing means, or it's not widely known. Even within the climate community, you know, you mentioned I was a part of the marketplace of the future during Climate Week this past September. And even people in climate aren't unfamiliar with that term. And so, like, for me, I see, oh, this is important work that I have to do. And from the standpoint of SEO, you know, sustainable, ethical, all those things are there.

0:14:20.9 MD: But what I often see is really just kind of like, you know, I think Emily said, like the checking of the box, like, oh, it's sustainable. Oh, it's ethical, without never really exploring what the nuances are, the supply chain, or even having kind of the tools to start asking the questions. And I really saw that, especially at the marketplace with a future event, because these are people who kind of self subscribe to, you know, being very conscious consumers.

0:14:58.7 MD: And just the conversations I had, you know, people were just so surprised, like, I had no idea what a supply chain looks like, or have never seen a raw gemstone, or I'd never really thought about artisanal miners being women, and the idea that, wait, they're also entrepreneurs with a side hustle, like all of these really, really empowering conversations were being had. And I think that's sort of the purpose of why I think my work is so important is to really start connecting the dots. And, you know, really try to break down some of the greenwashing, because I think it's not easy to talk about this topic, because there can be some very intimidating parts of it. But my goal is really to create a very joyful space and have it be a safe space to ask these questions.

0:15:58.4 CM: Bob or Emily, is there anything that you wanna respond to, or that you wanna respond to each other on in this first topic? Okay. Going, okay. So, all three of you have articulated that, you don't know when the customer comes to you, how informed they are of a particular topic or issue, but you can kind of tell that in some cases they're coming to you because they're aware of the commitment you're making in the community or/and, for sort of the greater good.

0:16:44.7 CM: So, you know, you've been in business longer or shorter periods of time, Bob has the most longevity in the industry. But, and has sort of seen these changes coming, whereas Emily, you founded your business and Melissa, you founded your business off of these sort of principles kind of from the outset. So over the years, you know, that you've been doing this work, how have, like, has the awareness of the consumer been changing and evolving over time? Are they beginning to learn what to ask about? Are they beginning to ask about things beyond blood diamonds? Like, are they asking about their gold? Are they asking about their colored gemstones? Broadly, so Emily, I'd like to start with you with this one.

0:17:42.6 EP: Yeah. So I've been in business now for, I've had the business for nine years, been in the industry since 2011. Always, like you said, with the goal of kind of combining two passions. So like, responsible sourcing and making jewelry. And yeah, when I first started out, there's two questions I feel like I face and they've changed over the years. Or two, I guess, two topics. One was about gold and one was about diamonds.

0:18:15.7 EP: I had been a Fairmined license holder now since 2016. And when I first started offering it, you know, I always pitch it to my client and explain it. I've used the same pitch 2016 and now. In those earlier years, Fairmined gold was the first thing to go. If we were getting to the top end of customers' budgets, we'd be like, well, I don't need Fairmined. I can do recycled. And now when we present it, it is the first thing they say absolutely yes to. And that has been very cool for me to see that change over those years. Without any education, they had never heard of Fairmined gold before, but it is a very obvious change in buying practices. So that has been very exciting for me.

0:19:05.0 EP: The other funny change. And if this just goes to show that like the issue's kind of always changing is that now they'll come in and say, well, I don't want a blood diamond, so I'll get a sapphire. And now it's, well, I don't want a natural diamond, so I'll get a lab grown diamond. And we do sell lab grown diamonds. You know, I... My personal, I have a personal battle regarding that. But our practice, whenever lab gets brought up in our store is to provide what we call our disclaimers. And because I mean, we're absolutely battling what they're learning about lab grown diamonds outside of our store. And we kind of do a little bit of re-education about sourcing, about production. And we list off our disclaimers. We try to be as non-biased as possible. We talk about this almost weekly as a team because it's been a, it's obviously a very hot topic and sometimes we've sold it, sometimes we haven't. So it, we go back and forth on that. But our goal there is just to like educate. And then once we know that they've at least received our version of education about it, then we're okay to move forward with that.

0:20:24.8 CM: That's a really stark difference with the Fairmined story. And so when you say disclaimers, I think that's an interesting point for maybe other folks to understand too. I'm guessing what you're saying is, we know this but we don't know this, or we can determine this, but we can't determine that. Like what do you, can you give an example of a disclaimer?

0:20:45.6 EP: Alright. So our disclaimers are well, we start by saying, so what do you know about lab grown diamonds? And they say, well, we know that they're more ethical. And we say, well, that's not necessarily true. It is still a newly created product versus working with a product that's already in existence because we only work with reclaimed and recycled diamonds. And that usually makes 'em go, oh, I didn't realize that. And then we talk about, and not all lab growns are created equal. We are working with SCS certified, sustainable lab grown diamonds. We only working with one lab and we just talk about, we still do say like, that is also only carbon offset, though. Like, it's still not a solution. But that's what we offer. And then we also talk about its value and we compare it to a car or a phone and just state the moment you walk out of the door with it, it pretty much will go to $0.

0:21:43.9 EP: Which feels maybe a little dramatic, but we need to get that point across. One, just for our own kind of reputation and credibility because I don't want someone to come back and be like, you sold me this for $3,000 and now it's worth zero. So we just wanna be really upfront about that and we say and then we turn it back to but you've, it's about what you value. If it's not, it's monetary value. Some people don't value that. Maybe it's more about like getting to get a certain size and your partner got it for you. You know? So, and that's how we kind of bring it back to being less attacking and more just like positive. Like, Hey, it's what you value and if you don't care that it's lab grown, that's what you value and great, but it's not gonna be its monetary value. Like, just so you know. [chuckle]

0:22:34.0 CM: Yeah, that's a great example. You gave us a lot of detail on that. Thanks for sharing. So Melissa, I'm wondering in your time in business, you've been in other parts of the jewelry industry before launching all the brilliance. So how has it evolved for you? I mean, you said that you have that people need a lot of education but have you seen changes over time?

0:23:06.8 MD: Yes, I have. I would say when I started my business, it was an idea before COVID and a dear friend of mine, it was very interesting, her perspective. She said Melissa, no one cares about that stuff. Like where a diam, where a gem is from, or it was made by a woman. All they care about is do they like it? If they do, they'll buy it. And of course, during COVID, the conversations started changing about supply chains because it was really impacting people in an individual way. And I think for me it was kind of like the thing that really drove me to really go all in and really start talking about this stuff. And I think for my journey in learning because we had this opportunity with Zooms and all of this, I could literally call any, not call anyone, [laughter] schedule a Zoom with all these experts and really go deep and personal and really ask all the questions.

0:24:15.4 MD: And so my position was always, what is it that as a consumer or someone who doesn't know anything, what would it be that I wanna know? And so I always thought about that, approaching it from that lens to kind of more fully understand and anticipate questions that other people might have. And I think also cooked into my business was championing women. And of course, now that's more important than ever. And for me, I think that the way that I really view my business is that it more than ever is gonna be more and more about intention and connection as well as responsible sourcing. And I think telling that story about how women can be positively supported, impacted by the choices that we make in investments, like buying fewer, better things that endure, but also making sure that your investment truly does align with your values. That's another part that I'm really going to be leaning into deeply as well as, of course, sharing the supply chain stories. So those two things are [laughter] very much woven in the DNA. And yeah, I think that's in many ways, like all of our businesses are really kind of going to be very important for people, especially for people who really wanna make sure that they're investing in their values.

0:26:02.3 CM: Yeah. We're gonna go to Bob next, but I wanted to insert something here on the heels of what you said is I was just on a, in a meeting this morning and I got a better understanding of how sort of challenges around artisanal and small scale gold mining, getting the material to market and then how you actually sell it and talk about it. And I think this group of independent designer Jewelers, I know we have a few other, some larger companies that join, but in general we have sort of luxury brands and then we have small and independent designers who and it's the small and independent designers that seem to carry the message most boldly and the strongest and the like, really, really vocal advocates. It's harder for larger company, luxury brands because of so many complexities around investors and who has a stake in your messaging and it makes it hard, right?

0:27:07.9 CM: But there are some luxury brands, especially some of the Swiss companies who are purchasing artisanally mined gold and significantly and pulling it into their supply chains. So I just wanted to note like that it is this educational role that independent stores and brands and designers have in educating the public to be part of this transformation is critically important. Like, there isn't much of that happening in the middle of where the majority of purchasers go. So it makes these wings of the industry extra important kinda to carry that message. Bob, so leaning into your the time before people talked about responsible sourcing and the time after people started talking about responsible sourcing. How have you seen these changes evolve, like over time and like what has it taken? Oh, right as Rose-Marie asks you a question, I'm sorry.

[background conversation]

0:28:14.8 RG: Yes.

0:28:16.7 Rose-Marie: Right, this is what you want for this weekend?

0:28:19.0 RG: I can't have it back this weekend.

0:28:20.2 CM: The store's open. [laughter]

0:28:22.4 Rose-Marie: Why not? He's going to.

0:28:23.8 RG: He'll be getting...

0:28:24.4 Rose-Marie: We're putting a wrap around it. Will he be back Wednesday then?

0:28:28.9 RG: Yes.

0:28:29.0 Rose-Marie: It has to be that Friday. This time I'm gonna tell him. Will that work?

0:28:33.2 RG: Yes. Okay. Sorry.

0:28:34.8 CM: That's okay.

0:28:35.4 RG: We are... Christina knew that that was a risk with me. So I'm unquestionably the old person on the block here. I would say, unless the guys involved with roots are on, root Diamonds, I could very well be the oldest person on the block, [laughter] in terms of times in the industry. We're in our 24th full year up here. This is my second life. I'm 66. Conservatively, I started when I was 16, but it's really longer than that if you include making bows when I was a little kid at my dad's, when I'm at my dad's store. So none of this existed and we were also manufacturing jewelers of some consequence. So none of this existed in the past, period. You know, nobody was concerned I was buying all over the world. Nobody gave a rat's ass about it. Nobody did. There was no conversation, end of story. I think people... I think we have a different... We occupy a slightly, a really different space than Melissa and Emily do.

[background conversation]

0:29:57.6 Rose-Marie: That's the abstract.

0:29:57.8 RG: Because there are more people in who intentionally come to you guys because you're doing Fairmined or because of your involvement with the UN and things like that where people are coming into our store because of our Social Justice alliance, right? And the people that follow us on social media platforms obviously know the other stuff. But the, it's a... It comes out more in our conversation with people. You know, we carry a lot of designers who either are Fairmined licensed or work we in Fairmined for with us exclusively.

0:30:53.7 RG: I don't know how deeply it resonates with our customer in terms we just make sure they understand it's a socially conscious way to buy. It's more socially conscious. People, what we're seeing now is exactly what Emily said. The questions come from, with lab-growns, right? And before that we would get questions about whether they were blood diamonds, and we went through and explained all that. We're very fortunate to work with an extraordinarily wonderful diamond supplier who is probably one of the most... One of the least opaque I've ever run into. And who aligns with us. We approach lab-growns a lot, like Emily does, straightforward. We ask them what they know, why they're interested in lab-growns. It really always comes down. And we also do only use SCS-007 certified stones and it usually comes down to size and price. The rest of that conversation has fallen away over the last year or two as to whether they're ethical, more ethical or not. I'm not sure I've answered the question though, Christina. So put me back on track if I haven't.

0:32:23.9 AB: I think you did well, Bob. [laughter] Well, yeah, we're kinda looking for how things have changed recently, and it is interesting to hear that you're saying that it sounds like the narrative that lab grown is more ethical is a little bit more prominent recently. So that's interesting to hear and something for us to keep in mind that we need to make sure we continue to educate folks about that it's not so black and white that just...

0:32:52.4 RG: Well, it's not...

0:32:53.7 AB: Because it's lab grown doesn't mean it's more ethical. You know, you still have to consider how and where it's produced. What do you know about where it was cut and polished? You know, like people are not thinking about the nuance there yet.

0:33:06.6 RG: But I think the advantage, the lab grown conversation is it leads us into all these other conversations about color, about metal, about working with independent designers rather than production people. And yeah, and I, yeah, I think that that's, I think it actually does this a... It's a favor for us because it opens up a conversation and typically with people that are younger, so.

0:33:38.6 AB: That's great. Yeah. That's great to hear. So we also wanna touch on, we've kind of touched on this a little bit already, but taking a look at how it can be a challenging thing to talk to people about maybe some misconceptions that they have or how complex the jewelry sourcing world really is. You know, we know that it's connected to so many like, intense geopolitical issues and yet when people come in they're usually celebrating something. It's like a joyous occasion. And so recognizing that that can be a challenging conversation to navigate. What are some of the challenges that you've seen and what is some advice or some tips for others to approach these conversations without necessarily like putting a damper on the mood or, you know again, kind of gauging how much you say and any other tips or tricks?

0:34:47.2 EP: I'm happy to start.

0:34:47.8 AB: And let's, yeah, let's start with Emily. I was gonna say, yeah. [laughter]

0:34:51.4 EP: I had a situation recently, well, so I'll start by saying we are very honest. We are very, very honest. Like I said, even sometimes to our own detriment, if we don't know where something came from and we can't trace it back to a responsible source, we won't work with it. So we absolutely will lose sales over it. We don't work with customer supplied stones unless they're heirloom. You know, that gets a little tricky sometimes, but it's the out... Those are some outlier situations. And we always tell people it's because we have vetted our suppliers. We trust our suppliers. A lot of this still is based on word and we have really good relationships with them, and that's kind of what we're going off of. But I have no problem being completely honest about things. And we recently had a client come in who wanted a salt and pepper diamond, which we don't work with because we do not feel like we have a source that can provide any salt and pepper diamonds responsibly after doing a lot of research, or at least not one that aligns with our values.

0:36:05.1 EP: And they had just had a whole day of ring shopping and they were really on cloud nine, and they were so excited to come in and talk about what diamonds I they, we have had a billboard this past summer and they drove by the billboard and thought they saw a ton of salt and pepper diamonds on it. And I was painfully honest and told them exactly what I just said. We have not yet found a supplier whose values align with ours, and I knew where they went. The other stores, I'm like, oh yeah, they sell so and so's diamonds. And they say, well, what about so and so, aren't they responsible? I'm like, we don't work with them.

0:36:44.7 EP: You are welcome to take what you will with that statement. So I wasn't gonna bad mouth anyone, but I do really try to leave room for them to take makeup, whatever, to kind of take from that what they'd like. And if they wanna keep asking questions, they can, they left kind of, they looked a little shell-shocked, and I felt a little guilty. And three weeks later they came back and bought a ring from us and I felt great. And they bought a Sapphire, I think, from Montana or Sri Lanka. So I'm aware that I could be putting us in trouble in some of those situations, losing a sale. It's paid off for us. It can feel scary at first, but it's, we've navigated it. And I think when we put our values first, that idea really gets cemented in people's minds. And kind of makes up for the couple of sales that we've lost. It might feel more noticeable when you lose sales, but when you have people who are coming back 'cause of our values or refer us, that's really how I think we're still, you know, driving sales.

0:38:02.2 AB: Yeah, it sounds like that's a big trust-building aspect of how you work. Melissa, your thoughts on challenges and talking about complex topics and any advice?

0:38:19.2 MD: Yeah, I mean, I think Emily touched on some of the conversations that she has around laboratory grown diamonds. And, you know, I myself have been resistant to really kind of come out and say, like, oh, here's, you know, here's the source I'm comfortable with, with lab grown. I tend to just, you know, be very honest about, like, I'm not super comfortable yet. If you would like one, I am flexible and I have sourced, but I'm really transparent in saying this is, you know, I just want you to be, wanna be clear. Like I'm not a 100% sure, like the things that, that I'd like to tell you are clear on, I don't have full clarity on. And I think that is something that I, I mean, maybe I'll touch base with you, Emily, later, but it's something that I think I am really uncomfortable admitting to, but I am very truthful and people see that I'm a little uncomfortable. And I've also had kind of some conversations that were awkward to have with people in my climate space. There was a woman who was just so proud about her, her lab grown diamond, and without really her having gotten to know me or the conversation about responsible sourcing, she just presumed that I never work with natural diamonds.

0:39:57.0 MD: And she was just so like, oh yeah, I'm sure you don't work with, you know, those conflict diamonds. Here's my lab grown diamond. And she was like very aggressive about like, I'm so proud. And at the time I was like, oh, wow, that's really pretty. And then many weeks later, I had another conversation with her about something with regard to the conversation about natural and lab grown. And then so I asked her some really simple questions, where was your diamond grown? What was the energy source? Who benefited from it? And she couldn't answer any of those questions. It was kind of like, again, kind of like a conversation that was really difficult to have. But I also feel like I need to have this conversation, even if I'm really uncomfortable with it, not necessarily challenge her, but explain like the reasons why I really struggled to get excited and get my enthusiasm around supporting them. And so, it's just one of those things where I can't, like, I can't lie, 'cause Emily was saying, I'm going to always tell the truth. And for anything, like any kind of situation where I just don't know what the information is, I'm completely okay saying, I don't have clarity on that. If I can get clarity, I will find out and I'll come back to you. And that's kind of how, you know, how I have navigated that particularly difficult conversation.

0:41:45.5 AB: Again, I'm hearing, you know, honesty and transparency, like full transparency. And I think that's a great trust building aspect. Bob, your take on how these conversations could be challenging and any advice?

0:42:08.9 RG: Hold on. Sorry.

0:42:09.5 AB: That's okay.

0:42:11.7 RG: She forgot somebody was on the phone. But she's juggling three people, so it's not a problem. We don't have any problem with the conversation. And there's a handful of people here who know us pretty well. Just like the others, Melissa and Emily, we are completely honest with our customers, perhaps to a fault. Like Melissa, if we don't know something about something, but that's what my dad taught me, right? If you don't know, go find out and tell them you don't know. If we can't find a stone that doesn't meet our sourcing protocol, then we can't help them with the stones. Like Emily, we have an issue with salt and pepper diamonds, right? Because we know who the two big players are in the industry and they're honest. And if I offend anybody, remember Christina's disclaimer earlier on, they are honestly full of bullshit because they won't answer your questions when you call them. They avoid you. And we are not shy about telling customers exactly that. So yeah, I mean, and I think that's what, from feedback we get from people, that's one of the reasons people refer us is because they tell people that we're gonna tell them the way it works, you know, going to lab-grown diamonds, not to use, not to get into politics, but Vice President Harris talked about price gouging, right?

0:43:58.0 RG: In our industry, lab-grown diamonds, a perfect example of retailers online and brick and mortar price gouging the customer, five to 700%. It's ludicrous. It's greedy. It's not the human model. It's not the way you do business. See how much you can cajole out of, you can get out of people. And we tell people that. And when we're working with a lab grown as with anything else, you know, if I pull something up from Stuart Poole's website and it shows costs, we don't care the customer seeing our costs because our markup is our markup and we don't take unusual, we don't take really high markups on stuff, you know? And if they have a problem with it, then I can't help it if they don't want us to make a livable wage.

0:44:49.7 RG: So typically, what happens with that is if they leave and they shop and our return rate is extraordinarily high is they come back and they'll say, you were right because we have been completely transparent. So I guess part of the conversation is we're honest, but we are really, really freaking transparent. We just don't care if the customer knows what our cost is and what we're making because if you're not taking an unreasonable markup, then why should you be scared of it? And it goes back to what Emily and Melissa were both saying about being honest, and I think there are ways to reach out to the generation, the age group of people that we're all trying to get to. And I think one of the things we're learning is that honesty is the best way to do it. They really appreciate you not hiding things from them.

0:46:01.4 CE: Excellent, Bob. Thank you so much. Before we go to talk about another aspect of the retail experience, I just wanna get to Sarah's question. She's asking, do you feel like you have the necessary agency to ask these questions from your suppliers and get the answers that you legitimately need? If there's anything you wanna add, Sarah, about your question that I didn't mention, please just unmute and you know, put your comments out there. Go ahead.

0:46:29.4 Sarah: Yeah, sure. Hi, everyone. I'm just curious because we talk a lot about at JVC about like reaching back into your supply chain and getting information from your suppliers. And I'm just really curious if you feel like you have the, if you get answers to those questions, if you feel like you can have those conversations with all of your suppliers. I'm sure many of your suppliers who are on this call are willing to talk to you, but those who are not maybe, might be different.

0:47:02.3 CM: Bob, Melissa, Emily.

0:47:05.5 EP: We approach this, I mean, yeah, you're right. A lot of our suppliers are on this call. And when we go to, and a lot of our suppliers I'm friends with, my approach to supplier relationships and trust and asking questions is that it's, well, I guess exactly what I just said. It's built on trust and relationships. I've always said this industry is built on a handshake and it is very much built on relationships and I really value those relationships. I value referrals quite a bit. And so we don't, if we're looking for new suppliers, we honestly start with our friends first and say, hey, who do you know who has this? And how do you feel about that? I don't, I very rarely just go out blindly and start asking questions because I don't feel like I'm gonna get honest answers. So I'd rather kind of go around and find and say, hey, Stuart, what do you know about so-and-so? And that's worked for us.

0:48:14.5 MD: One of the things I appreciate most about my suppliers is that I... When I am communicating with people, whether it's for an event, for example, there was a chocolate and gemstone tasting that I did. And I realized that I was slightly not using the correct language when I am proposing these gemstones. And what I really loved is that there was a back and forth that's that I was willing to sort of be like, take in the feedback and appreciate it. And also on the other angle, I think this particular supplier was really glad that she could just share like what is. And I think that's really the important part about when you have such a vetted community that really is committed to responsible sourcing and from the inside out of your soul, I mean, that's power. And to be able to just sort of be able to lean on these people when you do have the questions and they don't have the answers, it's just so meaningful to be able to have that like a two-way conversation. And they're really a support system, to be honest, on every level. So I appreciate everyone who's within my community.

0:49:45.9 CE: Bob, do you wanna add something before we go to this other side of things?

0:49:51.7 RG: No, I'm okay.

0:49:57.9 CE: Okay. And what we wanted to explore now really quickly is one thing is what we do in-house with our own jewelry that we make ourselves. And the other, like in the case of Bob and Melissa, you guys feature jewelry from other designers. So how do you go about talking about these sustainability topics and procuring these pieces with all that we have talked to about today? We're curious to see like this other side of things like, okay, I do my stuff, but how about when I buy from these other designers who can be value aligned but have challenges as I'm also thinking about Priya's question in particular, for example. Bob, you wanna take a stab at this?

0:50:50.9 RG: Yeah. How long have we worked with you? So full disclosure is we were clients of Christina's. How long have we worked with you, Christina? It's been that long, right?

0:51:03.2 CM: Oh, it's been a while.

0:51:04.8 RG: Yeah. Probably been longer for you than me.

0:51:07.0 CM: We're onto a second website, so that is fine.

0:51:10.5 RG: Yeah. And I'm sure it seems longer for you than it does for me because you have to deal with me. So that's been an evolution, right, because we didn't understand how to do it, to begin with. And I think that as we continue to learn more and more how to do this, I mean, right now we're trying to figure out whether a priori about tourmaline is coming from a place in the mind that we're willing to deal with, which Christina's helping with. But as we learn more and more about how to do this, I think it's our job, right? It's our, we're obligated to work with the designers and the partners that we buy from to help through the process. In the beginning, we were much more absolute about it, much more black and white. And I think we've come to realize with Christina's and her team's help that you can't be black and white and that if we're gonna be activists in this space, then we have to be willing to work with the designer to make it work. And it's to the point where we have, and again, we've done this with Stuart, with designers in London, we're happy to share names so that that designer can find ethically more properly sourced material. And we just, when we can, we just ask them to use Fairmined gold or if they're gonna use artisanal that's outside the Fairmined realm to be able to verify where it came from, which we did last year in a project with somebody out of Columbia. Did I answer it?

0:53:16.6 CE: That was great, Bob. Yes, thank you. Melissa, how do you go about doing this? And I know we have time constraints. Emily, the same question, but regarding maybe custom work. So Melissa, please.

0:53:29.6 MD: Yeah, I'll be really quick. First, as an extractive industry, there is no perfect, right? There's no getting around that. And I don't lie about that. I think the goal for the jewelry industry or any industry for that matter, is collectively making imperfect progress. And I often am very, well, I talk about this, every designer practices responsible sourcing differently and they're at a different place in their journey. So there is some, there are designers who are like, you know, 1000% doing the very, very best they can. And it's varying degrees, you know, that follow. But I think everyone is doing as much as they can, especially because they use different materials, and those materials come from different countries that also practice responsible sourcing differently. So I just try to be as transparent as possible about what, you know, this designer uses Fairmined gold, this designer uses recycled gold. And that's like a whole another conversation. But yeah, I just I'm very honest about all the things I just shared.

0:54:42.6 CE: Great. Emily, any thoughts about your custom work, maybe?

0:54:46.9 EP: You know, not so much. The only thing I have to like, add to that is a, I have no problem casting shade on some of the materials we might offer that I don't have as much transparency on, we do still offer moissanites. So I have no problem being very honest, again, with these disclaimers about it. It's the honesty that people care a lot about. We also, yeah, kind of, we remind people too, they are aware of our values. And so they know where their money's gonna, even if it's not, even if maybe that specific product isn't exactly what they're like, we're not funding, maybe where that's, but we use their money to put it toward other bigger projects, or doing good. Do I have time to share about our markups? 'Cause Bob touched on markups and talked about it too.

0:55:49.6 CE: Go ahead.

0:55:50.7 EP: And I just wanna offer kind of a different, you know, Bob and I have different businesses, they're similar, but they are different. We do have a pretty high markup on our lab-grown diamonds. It was although a way for us to stay in business. When the prices started coming down, we were bringing our prices down with everyone, everything else. And we were starting to really struggle with it. We brought our markups back up on lab-grown, and it has actually converted those lab-grown customers to natural because it was no longer $1,500 worth it versus 10,000. It was maybe 5,000 versus 10,000. So it's converted people to natural, which we weren't expecting, but we were happy about. But we're just very honest with people about, we're not as transparent about sharing exactly the dollars we're making on things. But we are aware of the experience. We talk a lot about the experience. We're selling custom design and made to order is quite the, we have a pretty good experience that we're offering here. And we're very upfront with where our money is gonna and what we are funding. And when you're supporting us and paying for the product that we're putting out there, what is that money going toward? And what is it helping in like the future that we're building and the efforts that we're working toward?

0:57:19.3 CM: This has been a fantastic session. I really appreciate Bob and Melissa and Emily coming and sharing their time. It's a busy time of year, but what you all have learned over time with your businesses is really valuable. It's not like you're giving people sort of the secret to sort of like, this isn't, this is a sharing environment, right? And everybody occupies the market in a little bit of a different way in a little bit of a different geographical location, etcetera. And so we're only helping each other by sharing this kind of information about what's working and what's not working. Ultimately we want the supply chain to be designed for purpose. And the purpose that we can really deliver on is taking care of people and planet when we make different choices with our purchases of our materials. And when you're balancing between, I'm not getting the information from the supplier that I need, or I am those suppliers that really resist your questions, give it a pause.

0:58:37.1 CM: The suppliers that are open to giving you more information about the questions that you have. Those are the folks to keep trying to get more from, the folks that can answer your questions now and are totally willing to answer your questions now deserve your business, right? Like, so we have this sort of range of how we engage on the purchasing. And so closing in the same way we started, like creating safe spaces for people to be really comfortable coming to you. They know that they're okay. If they come to you is super important. And we appreciate all of you that have participated in The Living Room sessions, because we know this is a value that we share in community. So we will miss you very much.

0:59:27.8 MD: Big shout out to Maggie, who with Christina started these living room sessions at the height of COVID. Anna who lately also was in charge of making them through to all our guests, to all our contributors. Thank you so much for believing in us and contributing. And this community is why we do this work every day. And we value you. We are here for you. And let's see what the future will bring and...

1:00:00.3 RG: Christina, before you close out, I'd like to thank you for doing this and coming up with the idea. I'd also like to encourage everybody that's on after the results of the 5th to engage in whatever form of advocacy is you're comfortable with. And to stay positive and fight forward. And don't focus on the individual, but focus on moving all forward. And improving everybody's way of life.

1:00:43.9 EP: Yeah. I love that you added that, Bob. It's all about mutual aid and community. And we're all in community here together. And we will continue to be. So thank you all.

1:00:56.2 MD: Bye-bye.
1:00:58.5 CE: Thank you. Take care, everyone.